Interview with Carlos Campbell

Introduction by Richard Farson
Carlos Campbell is a man of many accomplishments. He is perhaps best known as Assistant Secretary of Commerce in the Reagan administration. But he is an urban planner, having written a well received book on the subject of New Towns and having held a high post in HUD. He was also a Lieutenant Commander in Naval Aviation Intelligence. In recent years he has served on the boards of several corporations. Add to that list athlete, aviator, photographer, actor...well, he is quite a guy. I'm happy to welcome Carlos, my longtime friend.

Response 24 : 1 Kip Winsett
Hi Carlos, it's nice to have this opportunity to talk with you.

What led you to work in the government at the policy level? Was it more ideals or pragmatism?

Response 24 : 2 Carlos Campbell
The genesis of my decision to accept a position in the Administration of President Nixon goes back to 1965. I had completed two squadron tours in the Navy. The first involved reconnaissance flights along the Soviet Union and, of course, the Cuban Missile crisis. We thought that we were going to war for nearly two weeks. I had also survived quite a few incidents of getting jumped by Soviet fighters and a near shoot down by a North Korean MIG. In addition I survived two on board fires. This is the kind of stuff that many Naval Aviators experience so it was no big deal. The only thing anyone ever complained about was the lousy box lunches that were passed off as food. I felt that I did what I was supposed to do and kept the faith. Our flights were highly classified so we just went about our business and kept our mouths shut.

After completing a year at the U.S. Naval Post Graduate School, in Monterey, California, I received a Diploma in Engineering Science. My next duty station was Washington DC and an analyst in the Soviet Navy Branch of the Defense Intelligence Agency Headquarters in Washington DC. Incidentally, I was the only black officer candidate in my OCS Class in Newport, Rhode Island in 1959. My health records were pre-stamped "white." I was also the only black officer in my squadron, VP-22, at Barber's Point, Hawaii. The same was true at DIA. In April 1965 I was turned down for housing in Northern Virginia in over three dozen attempts. I always went to apply in uniform which was of no consequences. One day I went to a place named Americana Fairfax. A South Vietnamese Army Officer was in his uniform and checking his mail at the counter. I asked the clerk for an application thinking that I had hit pay dirt. The clerk looked at me and said: "I am sorry sir but we do not practice open occupancy." I finally rented a place from an Army Officer in the Mount Vernon area. He was fantastic and only wanted me to make sure that my wife was happy with the choice. For the first few weeks, when I went running in the morning, I was stopped by the police. They said, "Someone reported a burglar in the area." I told them who I was and where I lived and they finally left me alone.

In August 1965, riots broke out in Watts. About three dozen people were killed, hundreds were wounded and hundreds of millions of dollars were lost in property from fires. I was moonlighting for an architectural firm in Washington DC and started thinking of getting out of the Navy. I applied to graduate school at Catholic University and was told that the Shah of Iran had sponsored several students and that there were no more openings. I insisted on seeing the Chairman of the Department and muscled my way in on probation. In 1968 I graduated first in my class. I was assigned to the Bureau of Naval Personnel to recruit blacks to the officer corps. I was on the poster of the NROTC book covers, appeared on national television, did voice over narration for public service announcements and got the acting bug. I spent the summer studying acting at Arena Stage in Washington DC and left the Navy in October 1968. I interviewed with the National Urban Coalition. I was accepted by the National and Regional Directors but rejected by the local/neighborhood staff because they wanted someone from the "community." In retrospect, they made the right choice because I did not have any local relationships and was oblivious to the local power structure. I worked for the Control Data Corporation "Think Tank" as a senior systems analyst with the understanding that I would be transferred to the Beverly Hills, CA., office so I could concurrently pursue work as an actor.

In the Spring of 1969 I received a call from the Assistant Secretary of HUD, Samuel C. Jackson and he convinced me to accept a position as his Special Assistant. I had met him years earlier through two fraternity brothers, Kenton Kieth and Delano Lewis. (Incidentally both ultimately became U.S. Ambassadors). To be sure, I was more idealistic than pragmatic. I had always had a case of infectious optimism. Of no small consequence is that the motto of my fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha, is Scholarship, Leadership and Service. Also, I had met Richard Nixon when he was Vice-President and spoke at Michigan State University. His Naval Aide, Craig Campbell, was a classmate of mine at Monterey. My first boss after graduating from Michigan State, John Snell, was a neighbor of George Romney, Secretary of HUD. Relationships matter. So I worked at HUD and did television commercials and documentary films as a union actor. One of my mentors told me to write an article once a quarter so that is what did.

As a veteran of the Cold War, I respected President Nixon for his strong Anti-Communist position. Domestically, I had been a part of the process in the Civil Rights Act of 1968 although the major players were President Johnson, Senators Mondale and Brooke who did the ground work. Following the assassination of Doctor King, President Johnson exercised his leadership to get the Fair Housing Bill enacted into law. Through my own efforts along with the help of an attorney and my father who was a close friend of the Administrator of the Housing and Home Finance Agency, Robert Weaver, I was able to get hundreds of housing units in Northern Virginia desegregated. All of this got to the attention of Senator Mondale so he had me appear before his committee.

Please excuse the long answer but as Walter Mosley says, "Context matters."

Response 24 : 3 Carlos Campbell
Dick, thanks for providing this opportunity. I welcome comments and criticism. One of the many challenges I had to deal with was being part of a Republican Administration which was elected through a racist "Southern Strategy." Quite a few blacks were rather hostile to those of us within the Administration.

Response 24 : 4 Richard Farson Jul 04, 2008 10:54

Carlos, do I recall correctly that the Reagan administration wanted a black to take on the particular responsibilities of the job of Asst. Secy. of Commerce they offered you?

Response 24 : 5 Carlos Campbell
No that is not accurate. I turned down two positions and told Joe Ryan in the Office of Presidential Personnel not to offer me anything that had to do with "Minorities or equal opportunity." The next day I was offered the position at Commerce. After my Senate confirmation, it represented the first time in the history of the U.S. that a black person received a presidential appointment to the Commerce Department. In 1977 I was one of the founders and Directors of McLean Savings and Loan in McLean, Virginia. Prior to going to commerce I was a partner in a 400 plus unit Real Estate development in the District which I had to walk away from.My father Fred Campbell was the founder and president of Allied Federal Savings and Loan in Queens New York in 1957. He was a 1933 graduate of St.Johns University in Brooklyn, N.Y., from the School of Commerce and Economics. The difference was that my father's S&L served the black community to provide access to mortgages. McLean was a mainstream institution.

The business loan portfolio that I had authority over was in excess on one billion dollars and included mainstream businesses. I did loans north of 500,000 dollars which was the limit for the Small Business Administration. I subsequently served on the White House Task Force to recruit and place "Minorities and Women." I do not recall a single instance in which a person was placed in a position because of their ethnicity or gender. I did advise a retired Navy Three Star Admiral to turn down a position as Ambassador to Rwanda which he did. I thought the country was too small, too unstable and below his level.

The company that I owned and operated, HSI, did the housing relocation plans for Alexandria and Shereveport, Louisiana. The Alexandria Relocation plan received the quickest approval of any relocation plan in the history of the Federal Highway Administration. I was also on the Northern Virginia Regional Planning District Commission. I was also in the Naval Reserves. Yes, I knew the president and had a few friends in high places, but it was my combinationl of skills and associated success that probably got me through the process.

Response 24 : 6 Richard Farson Jul 05, 2008 03:28

Glad to have that clarified, Carlos.

Perhaps you've heard about the Presidential Finding that Bush presented to Congress at the end of last year (Hersh has been writing and talking about it) that authorized $400 million to fund a special forces group of commando types who, because the Democrats went along, are now authorized to go into Iran and use "lethal defense" to destablize the country, presumably with assassinations....Hersh says to create a situation where Iran will make some mistakes creating an opening for Israel and the US to attack them.

I wonder if your experience as an intelligence officer gives you any special understanding of such an operation...even if it isn't an intelligence gathering unit.

Response 24 : 7 Carlos Campbell
I met Seymour Hersh years ago shortly after he wrote "The Target is Destroyed." I confronted him and was critical of his work. As you may know when I was in the Intelligence community I participated in operational, analytical and cover activities. Also, since I was a member of President Reagan’s sub-cabinet, it would not be prudent to confirm or deny something that I have no first hand knowledge of, particularly if it involves an on going operation.. At the moment, there really is no hard data to back up what Seymour Hersh is speculating about. There are many reasons to classify intelligence activities. One is to protect sources and methods. Regarding covert ops, lives are at risk. (I have been there when I worked for Bill Colby, former Director of the CIA.

I passed up an opportunity to talk about what I did when Barbara Newman produced a story which was aired on the Discovery Channel. My colleague Bill Cowan did appear and explained how we extracted seven American assets out of Kuwait during Operation Desert Shield, circa August 1990) Given that the "Black" budget is probably north of $50 billion annually, it seems unusual that a specific amount would be designated for a specific project. If Hersh discloses classified information, he runs the risk of prosecution. If this is a credible operation, he jeopardizes the lives of assets who are in harms way. In my view this is irresponsible journalism.

This issue is too murky for me so I will pass on any further comment on Seymour Hersh. I was at a dinner party with him about six weeks ago at a reporters house in Washington DC and had not interest in talking with him.

Response 24 : 8 Kip Winsett
Carlos, as I understand it the mission of the Commerce department is to "promote job creation and improved living standards for all Americans by creating an infrastructure that promotes economic growth, technological competitiveness, and sustainable development."

Do you have the sense that the department today is fulfilling that mission, and how would you compare it's efforts to when you served as the Assistant Secretary?

Response 24 : 9 Carlos Campbell
Kip, thanks for this question. During my tenure, Malcolm Baldridge was the Secretary of Commerce. I cannot resist telling you that when I ran into my friend former Vice-President Walter Mondale at National Airport during that period, he said that Secretary Baldridge was the best person in the Reagan Administration to work for. Secretary Baldridge said our mission was to "Enhance the productivity of American Business." We were focused on international trade to facilitate exports and efforts to improve technological competitiveness.

Some of our infrastructure was largely driven by lobbyist or special interests groups and remained long after their usefulness. The Economic Development Administration (EDA) and the Minority Business Development Administration (MBDA) are examples. The National Atmospheric and Oceanographic Administration, U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, International Trade Administration, and National Bureau of Standards, are all under Commerce and very useful.

EDA and MBDA ought to be combined with the Small Business Administration and spun out of government as a Congressionally Chartered Agency and listed on the NYSE or NASDAQ as a for profit corporation with a nine person board. This would be more in sync with an entrepreneurial culture and reward people for performance. Of course this will not happen because Congress would not give up control and their tradition of taking credit for announcements of loan and grant approvals.

I have not had any meaningful contact with Commerce since I left. I think our government is in a tailspin and in need of a new direction. I was in Qingdao and Beijing, China from 15-23 June 2008 and met with the CEO’s, reporters, bankers and elected officials. China is on the move. In design, planning and economic development, the nation is on the move. For architects and planners, it is the best game on the planet. The results are visible, except for the ever present smog but they are working on that.

Response 24 : 10 Richard Farson
Carlos, were there any special pressures brought to bear on you when you were Undersecretry of Commerce?

Response 24 : 11 Carlos Campbell
Dick, thanks for the belated promotion. Actually, I was the Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Economic Development and the Administrator of the Economic Development Administration. Pressure you say? If the 2500 or so Presidential appointees were an Olympic Track and Field Team, I would have best been described as the duty javelin catcher. As part of the President’s Economic Recovery Program, EDA was on the "Hit List" for an orderly phase out. This was nothing new. President Nixon had also tried to "phase out" EDA. When President Reagan was inaugurated, EDA had a staff of about 900 personnel. By the time I was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on 5 November 1981, EDA was down to about 500 personnel. The pressures were psychological and otherwise. The weekend following my confirmation, my office was broken into and ransacked. Photo of my family were smashed, my model aircraft were stolen, and my African art sculptures were also stolen. Some one urinated in my jar of jelly bellies and champagne was poured on typewriters in my secretary’s office and so forth. This was all reported to the Inspector General and the building police but nothing ever came of it. This was phase one of the "Torture."

The Minority Staff Director of the House Public Works Sub-Committee on Economic Development tried to lure me over to her house in Vienna, Virginia after a mutual friend, Attorney Mike Simpson, asked me to meet with him at a bar on my way home one evening. I passed on the probable "Photo op."

Then there were telephone calls at 3:00 AM in the morning which I just stopped answering after a while. Added to this were fallacious allegations directed toward me for grants that I approved to organizations headed by people that I knew. WBSI was one of the groups. I lost track of the women who blatantly hit on me.

The most intense and consistent pressure came from the Hill (Congress) to approve grants and loans which were of questionable merit or to place some of their staff or constituents in EDA. Interestingly the worst and most offensive were the Republican members of Congress and the most respectful and polite were….hold onto your seat…were Senators Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd. They had mastered the art of Southern charm.

Response 24 : 12 Kip Winsett
Carlos, since you've served in fairly high offices in the military, the government and the corporate world, what is your sense of the general level of cooperation between them? Does it tend to be (in your opinion) reasonable, somewhat corrupt or really very clear mutual back scratching to the detriment of the taxpayers? And has it changed significantly in the past 45 years?

Response 24 : 13 Kip Winsett
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been financially very costly to America but they do have the benefit of making us the only modern military force of any size with any real experience using high tech and modern C and C tactics. In your opinion is the cost worth the benefit? Do you think that other countries (e.g. China, Russia, etc.) may feel a need to exercise their own militaries in order to regain some nominal parity with the U.S. military?

Response 24 : 14 Richard Farson
Carlos, the questions are piling up, but we can give you a choice.

What was it like being a black official in a Republican adminstration?

Response 24 : 15 Carlos Campbell
I will have to respond to the different sectors over time. Here is my response to the military environment. Will do the government next, then corporate.

The military, government and corporate sectors represent three distinct cultures. I was on active duty as a Naval Officer for nine years, an executive in the Administrations of Presidents Nixon, Ford and Reagan for a total of about nine years, with breaks in between each, and an executive in various capacities, senior systems analyst, business owner, member of boards, within "Corporate America," for about thirty years. Since I graduated from college in 1959, my service preceded the "Affirmative Action" era so I did not have to live with the stigma of being a token or otherwise pigeon holed. I have always been an infectious optimist and an integrationist.

When I graduated from High School in New York City, in 1954, my class was about 5 percent black out of 560 white students. Of the 31 black students that graduated, 30 went on to college. We all were part of what I will call a West Indian/ Jewish culture. All of our teachers in High School were Jewish. A large number of the student body was made up of displaced persons whose families had survived the horrific death camps of Nazi Germany. I lived with my father who had immigrated to the United States from Panama and Cuba. He had worked his way through DeWitt Clinton High School and St. John’s University and was the only black graduate in his 1933 Class. He subsequently established an accounting practice in Harlem, owned three barber shops, a liquor store and Allied Federal Saving and Loan in St. Alban’s New York. I held part time jobs and a bank account from the age of thirteen.

My immediate neighborhood consisted of some of the most successful black folk in the history of America, as of 1954, which included: William "Count" Basie, Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Lena Horn, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Ray Brown, Fats Waller, Specs Powell, Joe Louis, and the like.

I never had a sense of inferiority and had an abiding faith in God, myself and America.

When I graduated from High School, the yearbook indicated that I wanted to be a pilot in the U.S. Air Force. My father had arranged with Congressmen Adam Clayton Powell for me to get an appointment to the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. I was only 16 when I graduated from High School so I went to Michigan State and decided to pass on West Point. The draft was on so not going into military service was not an option. I felt that getting accepted into Naval Officer Candidate’s School was an honor and not a burden. I became a Naval Flight Officer and an Intelligence Officer and got a squadron in Hawaii. I was living my dream. It never occurred to me that I was the only black Intelligence Officer in the Navy. In the early sixties, I believe that there were less than a dozen black Aviators in the Navy and Marine Corps. Most of us bonded over the years and became a mutual support system.

My squadron had a very clear mission. We were in the business of collecting intelligence on the Soviet Union, North Korea and China during the Cold War. Most of our operations took place in the Sea of Japan along the coast line of the Soviet Union. We also flew patrols South and Southwest of the Hawaiian Islands to monitor the Soviet Missile operations. Mission clarity, notwithstanding the danger of on board fires and enemy shoot down practices, was a morale booster. Flight crews were very close and what we did was either extremely boring or unbelievably terrifying, like trying to avoid getting shot down by a MIG in hot pursuit.

Of course, the military has a very structured hierarchy so there is no ambiguity between ranks. There can be an ambiguity between how a junior officer thinks things should be done and how tradition and cultures actually works. For example, the Chief Petty Officers have the weight of experience and institution memory behind them. If a Junior Officer thinks that he can discipline an Enlisted man for some minor infraction by putting him on report, he will soon hear from the Chief as to how things are done. The correct way is to forget the paper work and tell the Chief to square the sailor away has he see fit. I learned this lesson the hard way.

About thirty percent of my nine years on active duty were spent in the classroom as follows: Officer Candidate’s School; Air Ground Officer’s School; Air Intelligence School; Fire Fighting School; Air Navigation School; Nuclear Weapons Loading School; Anti- Submarine Warfare School; Escape and Evasion and Prisoner of War Indoctrination School; and the U.S Naval Post Graduate School.

If your fitness reports are "Two Blocked," which means "Outstanding," you, in essence, get to write your own orders. I got everything I requested and more. When I requested my release from active duty, Rear Admiral Henry Suerstedt, Jr., my boss at the Naval Air Systems Command called me into to his office. He asked me to reconsider and said emphatically: "You will make Admiral." I was shocked and flattered at the same time. I did not change my mind but have always credited the Navy for making me a better person and increasing my confidence. What was quite special about Naval Officers was the character and integrity. Many of us bonded for life.

Response 24 : 16 Carlos Campbell
I served with three federal agencies:. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, The American Revolution Bicentennial Administration (ARBA) and the U.S. Department of Commerce.

ARBA was a temporary agency under the leadership of the former Secretary of the Navy, John W. Warner. Most of us in senior positions were former Naval Officers. Because we were small, new and well led, we were efficient, effective and adaptive.

HUD was an exciting place to work. Again we were a fairly new and well led agency. Former Michigan Governor George Romney was the Secretary. He was open to new ideas such as systems building and new communities. I traveled with him and eight other HUD officials to the Greater London Area and to Paris to look at some of the New Towns and Systems Building projects. While Secretary Romney was progressive, there was an underlying bureaucratic infrastructure, a follow on to the former Housing and Home Finance Agency, which resisted change required by law. Housing program guidelines contained language "to maintain neighborhood stability" which was an anti-integration position. I was frequently on point of force Southern Governors to back down from their efforts to stop grants from going to black towns or colleges. This was the case in Georgia, North Carolina and Mississippi.

When I spoke at Harvard, Columbia, Cal Berkeley, UCLA or other colleges and universities around the nation, I sought to give them some insight into the real working of government. The President was focused on Vietnam and Watergate. John Erlichman and I were friends and went to the Stockholm Conference on the Environment in 1972. He was very gracious and far from his public image. After I left the Administration he appeared on my television talk show.

Commerce was an incredible eye opening experience. I was not aware that I was the first black presidential appointee to Commerce in the history of the Republic. Since I am writing a book about this experience, I will limit my response as follows. The resistance to closing down the Economic Development Administration which had a budget of about $300 million and a loan portfolio in excess on one billion dollars was formidable. A former member of the Republican National Committee, Dr. Henry Lucas, said to me: "I am surprised that someone did not try to take you out." This meant kill me. Well, as it were, yesterday’s "pork Barrel" became the "earmarks" in subsequent years.

Author William Burrows properly quoted me in his book "By Any Means Necessary" circa, 2001, where I said: "Government is about deception and power is about abuse."

On April 19, 1984, I experienced hyperventilation. I was taken to the Fairfax County Hospital Intensive Care Unit where I remained for three days. This was a life altering experience. In Washington, power trumps principle - and power, from a very small cabal, rules.

Response 24 : 17 Richard Farson
In a NY Times op-ed piece a couple of days ago, Benny Morris, the Israeli historian, said that it was almost certain that Israel would launch an attack on Iran to destroy its developing nuclear capability before the end of the Bush administration. Others have often commented that Israel could not mount a successful such major attack without U. S. support.

Carlos, given your experience in the intelligence community, how do you regard Israel's history of pre-emptive bombing such facilities in Iraq and Syria, and the prospect of their doing an even more extensive attack on Iran even though the exact nature of both the technology and the motivation of Iran is still arguable? And will the U. S. openly join in such an effort?

Response 24 : 18 Kip Winsett
Wow, Carlos the last 2 sentences of your last post presents a pretty dismal view of our government. I tend to see it that way myself but don't have the experience you have as a part of the upper policy making level, so I'm just a speculator.

Two questions, if you don't mind. First, do you believe this is simply the way it is, was and ever will be or do you entertain the possibility of change?

Second. Does Barack Obama as the democratic candidate for president herald anything new in America for the Darker Nation?

Response 24 : 19 Carlos Campbell
I have not had any formal relationship with the intelligence community for over twenty-five years. In responding to the op-ed piece by Benny Morris consideration must be given to the big picture and recognize the interests and influence of all of the nations in the region such as China, Russia, India, Pakistan, Syria, Jordan as well as Israel and the United States. With Russia reportedly supplying aircraft and surface to air missiles to Iran, attempts by Israel to launch a pre-emptive strike could be checked.

Before the U.S. acts in support of Israel, the CIA would probably assess the outcome of an expected utility model which examines the behavior of key decision makers such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president; Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Iranian Supreme Leader; Muqtada al-Sadr, the Iraqi Shiite leader and others from the interested nations.

Given the lack of substantive intelligence associated with the invasion of Iraq, the demand for hard intelligence on Iran would be quite high. Reportedly the Iranians have scattered their nuclear development activities over as many as three dozen sites some of which are hardened.

This would probably make it extremely difficult for MOSAD to conduct a clandestine operation to set back efforts to develop enriched uranium.

A distinction has to be made between Iran having a nuclear device and a nuclear weapons delivery capability. While Iran may have a device, it could take years to develop a weapons delivery capability.

Israel can initiate an air strike against Iran without the support of the U.S. The U.S. is in a precarious position because there are insufficient ground forces to deploy to Iran away from Iraq and Afghanistan. With Russia supporting Iran and a long term desire to have access to the Gulf the calculus has changed.

Israel historically has been resolute in controlling its destiny and will not likely be held hostage to threats by Iran. Israel, before a preemptive strike, will not ask permission and, after the fact, may not ask forgiveness.

Secretary Rice, from Abu Dhabi on July 21, 2008, cautioned Iran about facing "another round of hard-hitting sanctions in two weeks," if they fail to suspend uranium enrichment.

Wisdom is talking with your adversaries. While it is good that the U.S is establishing a diplomatic office in Teheran, this will not be enough to check attempts by Israel to launch a strike on Iran knowing that Russia will be in the mix.

On July 19, 2008 the policy chief of the European Union Javier Solana following a meeting with Iranian nuclear negotiator Saeed Jallili demanded a clear answer on how to begin preparation for negotiations.

Satellite and UAV aerial reconnaissance intelligence would probably verify the existence of hardened nuclear weapons development sites at multiple locations throughout Iran. Unless Israel has "bunker buster bombs," these hardened sites may require the use of nuclear weapons.

The essential questions and answers are these: (1) Will Israel attack, preemptively, prior to the end of the Administration of President Bush, Iran’s nuclear weapons related facilities? Answer: Yes.

(2) Will Israel use nuclear or conventional weapons? Answer: Conventional.

(3) Will the U.S. support Israel? Answer: Publicly, the U.S. may condemn Israel. Privately, the U.S. may support Israel and supply conventional weapons, intelligence and position a Carrier Battle Group close to the theater of operations.

(4) Is it likely that an Operational Plan exists for the U.S. to launch an air attack on Iran? Answer: Yes

(5) Is it likely that an Operational Order will be signed by President Bush for the U.S. to initiate an air strike against Iran? Answer: No.

Response 24 : 20 Carlos Campbell
Max Weber, the father of bureaucracy, wrote: "When the bureaucracy is optimized, the individual in dehumanized." Bureaucracy, to a large extent is inefficient, insular and disorganized. Some agencies are better or worse than others. Bureaucrats exist primarily to serve themselves first and customers "citizens" second. Fortunately, most agencies have enough responsive career professionals to keep the wheels turning. Change will be born out of adversity. The present system of subterfuge, redundancy, and the failure of Congress to exercise oversight cannot last. The citizens will have to hold the feet of their elected officials to the fire or continue to pay unnecessarily high taxes.

Senator Obama has consistently demonstrated his brilliance and ability to lead effectively. He represents a fresh start and rational opportunity for all Americans and for many citizens of the world.

Response 24 : 21 Carlos
When I started running competitive track at age 13, I set out to win. The color of my opponent was never a factor in my attitude as an individual. The same was true when I played soccer or football or competed in the classroom. Other than my fraternity Alpha Phi Alpha, I never joined a group on the basis of race. That the Republican Administrations that I served within had very few blacks was not something that intimidated me.

As it were I always enjoyed good relationships with the Presidents and Cabinet Secretaries that I worked for. I did go out of my way to practice what I called constructive equity which was to exercise my authority to hire people of color and women, award grants and approve loans in the face of resistance based on race. While many were critical of the Reagan Administration I was receiving countless accolades for being responsive. The Republicans never benefited from this kind of publicity because I had my adversaries within the Party who were hostile President Reagan. To this day, I hold President Reagan in high regard.

I spoke around the country; reporters were hostile toward me until I told them what we were accomplishing. We had a Task Force at the White House to place ethnic minorities and women which I served on. This system worked to get people through the door. I was able to grease the skids for a Judge, Attorneys and others. At the end of the day, the advocates of "Pork" prevailed and because of the efforts of the Reagan Administration, which I led to change this process, "Ear Marking" was born. Now annual budgets include over TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS IN EARMARKS.

Response 24 : 22 Kip Winsett
Carlos, According to USCENTCOM, http://www.milnet.com/milnet/pentagon/centcom/chap1/stratgic.htm#USPolicy the purpose of U.S. engagement, as espoused in the NSS, is to protect the United States' vital interest in the region - uninterrupted, secure U.S./Allied access to Gulf oil."

Is Russia, flush with petro dollars, up to the task of a direct confrontation with the U.S. in order to secure it's own goal of Gulf access via Iran?

Response 24 : 23 Carlos
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev recently said that he is "Deeply distressed" by the planned U.S. led Missile Defense System for Europe. The Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement, "we will be forced to react not with diplomatic, but with military technical methods," if the system is deployed. [Wall Street Journal Editorial July 10, 2008] It is really not about "Petro dollars." A more cogent question is whether or not the U.S. is up to a direct confrontation with Russia to prevent it from securing access to the Gulf via Iran? It seems to me that future wars, asynchronous, conventional or nuclear, will be fought by coalitions. The negative consequences of failure from a political, military, environmental and economic standpoint would be catastrophic. Remember that at least 30 nations have ballistic missiles so much of the outcome will depend on the makeup of the "coalitions."

In my view, Russia would like to buy some time, perhaps years, to strengthen its military order of battle and build strong relationships with their allies. I believe that future wars will have more to do with gaining access to and control over critical resources.

Your question while significant can not be reduced to Aristotelian Dichotomous Logic. There are simply too many variables. If the Theater of Operations could be contained in the Gulf of Oman, the U.S. even though stretched with ground forces deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan would have the advantage of experienced Carrier Battle Groups.

Response 24 : 24 Kip Winsett
Carlos, you've given so much to think about in your answer. Very meaty.

Two aspects that seem important.

1. We haven't talked about India or China. They would seem to be inordinately important to the "coalition" aspect. How comfortable do you think either of them would be as part of a coalition with either the U.S or Russia. Neither seem altogether trustworthy to me. Brazil is also probably more important today than 30 years ago.

2. The critical resources are not limited to oil so the potential theater of engagement/competition is by no means limited to the mid east. Can any country today afford to really gain any kind of meaningful control over much of the world's resources. The whole makeup of the world at that level seems to have changed dramatically over the past 20 years.

Response 24 : 25 Douglass Carmichael
This is an amazing interview. Like many "memoirs" now in draft I have read in the last few years, we are going to see a number that throw real light on the post ww2 period, like this conversation does.

What strikes is the decency of Carlos and so many of that generation. At the same time, the loyalty to the system that was historically reasonable, given Hitler and Stalin, has caused the world we are in today, with its dangers and overheated economic and technical process.

We need a way out and up. I wonder Carlos, what your view now is? The Obama comments are telling. But they co-exist with protecting the Intelligence agencies and the black hole of the Intelligence budget.

Don’t we need a more transparent society and a new culture of governance?

I remember being a consultant with some access to Commerce in the early Clinton years. I saw a delegation from China asked for a hundred dollars each for the group of 15 to be photographed with he secretary. They complied. I saw that when Brown's plane went down in Italy all those on board were American business people looking to relocate, which did not tend to create jobs on American soil.

But the real staggering point here is the confirmation of the Israeli attack on Iran. The US could stop Israel by saying, don't or no more money. Then, a two state solution or you are finished by existing historical forces. For Israel's good, it must change direction. Could that be the US position? If not, why not?

Response 24 : 26 Richard Farson
Carlos, do you have any critical reaction to the CNN program on Black in America?

Response 24 : 27 Carlos Campbell
Kip. As you know there is a long and mixed history with the Sino-Soviet alliance which preceded World Wars One and Two, Korea , Vietnam and the Cold War. When Mao wrote in 1923, The Report on the Peasants of Hunan, he advocated for a revolution in the rural versus the urban areas which contradicted the position of the Soviets.

I would not be surprised if the Chinese sided with the United States to "check" the Russians and advance their parochial interests in oil. Brazil, while distant, would not necessarily be an immediate factor in the Middle East. Because of it’s emerging economic stature, along with China, India, Mexico and Russia, they will collectively have a larger GDP output than the existing G-7 nations in about three decades.

As far as any one nation gaining control over the critical resources, I agree with your implied premise. The world continues to change at a rapid rate. Much will depend on environmental and economic issues and the need to manage political harmony. It is reasonable to anticipate a debt cartel amongst some of the borrower nations so they will have some leverage against the hegemony of the World Bank and the IMF.

In my view, the challenge is not so much to think outside of the box but to think and adapt as practical.

Response 24 : 28 Kip Winsett
Carlos, your lat statement is very evocative. Are you familiar with USAF Colonel John Boyd and his OODA loop?

Response 24 : 29 Carlos Campbell
Richard, about the CNN program on Black America:

The film included segments on a family reunion, discussions with scholars, members of the clergy, two brothers one incarcerated the other an author, professor and minister; a father and single parent in search of shelter and various other episodes. CNN apparently was trying to shed light on an extricable and complicated experience of an ethnic group bound by triumph and tragedy within a crucible of prosperity and pain.

The story of blacks in America remains largely untold from the studios of Hollywood, as well as the executive suites of America’s newspaper and book publishers and advertising agencies. What CNN did was to open the door, not unlike other networks like ABC did about twenty years ago.

It is appropriate to ask if the real story of black people in America can ever be told? How can we discuss black people without defining race? Will a discussion deal with racism within the black community? What about the tension within the black family between the patriarchy and matriarchy? What about women who want fathers for their children but not husbands? What about married women who give birth to children fathered by men other than their husbands and who keep this secret for life? What about a discussion between collectivism and individualism? What about a welfare system that is not fair and will not make you well? How can public policy be changed to stop the multi-generational dependency on welfare and public housing? What about black folk who refuse to whine or blame white folk and who accept personal responsibility for challenges?

It was troublesome to find that slavery was not the point of departure and that the emphasis throughout the documentary was on the negative without constructive recommendations. For example, when student drop out of High School, they ought to forfeit their driver’s license until they reach the age of 21. It must be recognized that when men impregnate women, they ought to be obligated to pay at least $100,000 per child over a period of eighteen years if they decline to marry the mothers.

In my view, the positive attracts. Hundreds of blacks have achieved Flag rank in the military; thousands are practicing law, medicine, architecture, urban planning; serving on corporate boards, operating businesses; teaching in universities, serving as elected officials and so forth. As a matter of fact, black athletes have followed penetration with domination in boxing, track and field, basketball, football, etc.

The untold story is that whites have been an integral part of advancing blacks and part of the bridge between pain and prosperity. I do not but the label of "Black Leader" but recognize the reality of community centric leaders in churches, schools, families and civic associations, such as the Boys Clubs of America and Boy Scouts. The CNN series was superficial, insensitive, disrespectful and insulting. The buffoon used between segments was a modern day celluloid minstrel more appropriate for the cutting room floor.

Response 24 : 30 Richard Farson
Another great answer from you, Carlos. Well, you've been willing to stay much longer than you expected to, and we appreciate it. Thanks so much for your thoughtful answers to our questions. We'll be publishing this interview in our next ILF Digest. So let me close this interview and free you to pursue your most interesting work. Thanks again for your honesty and generosity.

Response 24 : 31 Kip Winsett
Carlos, I'd like to add my own thanks. You've been more than generous with your time and I very much appreciate the scope of your answers.